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Interview with the Rector of the Moscow State University named after M.V. Lomonosova V.A. Sadovnichim

It's no secret that the emergence of a new university is always an important event in the scientific and educational sphere of any country. And even more significant is the appearance of a branch of Moscow State University. This year, the branch of Moscow State University named after M.V. Lomonosov opened its doors for Yerevan listeners. On the 18th of September the Rector of the University Victor Antonovich Sadovnichy met with the first-year students. He addressed the students with a speech, wished them success in their studies and answered their questions. We also managed to ask Viktor Antonovich a few questions.

— You arrived in Yerevan last night.
What impression did the evening city make on you?

— I have not been to Yerevan for a long time, many years have passed. It was a very difficult time then: Armenia was under blockade, there were problems with electricity. And yet Yerevan seemed to be a very beautiful city. This time I didn't see much. We drove through the center, looked at the main square of the republic, saw some buildings. And here is the branch campus, so beautiful. It seemed to me that this is a different Yerevan. Another face of the city.
I'm glad things are changing for the better.

— Viktor Antonovich, how did you react to the proposal to open a branch in Yerevan?


- Of course, I immediately supported. But we must imagine that the creation of a branch in another country is a long process. The most important thing is responsibility. For example, we announced to everyone that the branch is open, students are recruited. What's next? It is no longer possible to close the branch, the guys will already consider themselves insulted. It was necessary to think over the trajectory so that the branch was opened, they could teach, they could live indefinitely. This required some interstate decisions, we have been doing this for quite a long time. Not everything is so simple, because it is associated with large financial investments. The main issue for us was to find a financial opportunity for the life of the branch. Now she has been found. We have agreed with private companies to make the branch full-fledged.

— What impressions did the students of our branch make on you?

- These are probably my grandchildren by age. Here you are, beautiful, look at me with smart little eyes. It pleases that in Armenia young people tend to think. The students are always wonderful. I love students.

So you think that we are not very different from our predecessors?

“Absolutely, exactly the same photos with the first course we had a month ago, all the same mischievous, young, ambitious, energetic.

— What are your plans for the further development of the university? Will there be more branches?

— We have six branches, five of them abroad, one in Sevastopol. More MSU does not intend to create branches in the near future. We do not set the task of the commercial component, we set the task of training, therefore, before creating a branch, we calculate how it will live in the future, because creating a branch and thinking that it will live on tuition fees is only a commercial basis . MSU doesn't do that. We always hope that the guys could study for the country, at the expense of the country's budget, or at least that Moscow State University would not have any profit from this. We do not have a penny of profit, we only deposit our funds into the branch. This is a very responsible decision. Moscow State University, in my opinion, is the only university in Russia that does not create branches in order to get something, to earn money. And he creates only in order to give knowledge, skills, programs.

Interview with the rector

Moscow State University is the main supplier of personnel for the country. Every year, MSU graduates six thousand specialists in all fields. They are trained by about 9,000 doctors and candidates of sciences, 250 academicians and corresponding members of the Russian Academy of Sciences, so Moscow State University is also a major employer.

I agreed to this interview because your newspaper has decided to make a significant change by paying much more attention to the young reader, the reader who is educated and well prepared. It just so happened that for more than 15 years a significant part of the media has been filled with entertainment content and pays the least attention to the main thing - the formation of a responsible attitude towards WORK among young people. Therefore, I believe that if your newspaper succeeds in raising the prestige of labor in the worldview, first of all, of our youth, this will be its significant contribution to our common cause - building Russia as a powerful and modern state in all respects.

I want to emphasize that Moscow University occupies a special place in the highly skilled labor market. Every year we graduate specialists in almost all areas of modern natural sciences and humanities. Demand for them is stable, and graduates quickly find work.

In the 1990s, there was a steady and widespread decline in the number of scientific personnel. Moreover, people of 30-40 years old who had achieved some results left science. Experts are of the opinion that these losses are not compensable. Is it so?

In general, the decline in the number of scientific workers is not only a Russian phenomenon. This process occurs in all developed countries of the world. On the one hand, this process is due to the significant automation of scientific work, when many routine functions of scientific research are transferred to computer technology and special computer technologies. Just one person began to do the work that was done by 10-20 people before. On the other hand, many new jobs have appeared, especially in Russia, in particular in service departments, which do not require great scientific knowledge and skills, but are paid better than in the field of education and science. And finally, most importantly, the third. Science, especially fundamental science, has become very expensive, capital-intensive, requiring a very versatile scientific training of a specialist researcher. The almost complete lack of support for fundamental science in the 1990s led to a significant outflow of talented researchers to foreign laboratories.

How has the staff of the university changed in recent years?

For the better. We are noticeably younger. This was helped by several special programs of the university aimed at supporting exclusively young researchers. The professional level of the teaching staff has significantly increased. There are about 3,000 doctors of sciences and almost 6,000 candidates at Moscow University. About 250 academicians and corresponding members work in our team. Even more significant is the expansion of the range of interests: we have many new interdisciplinary structures.

What can the university offer today to its employees - those who have worked at the university for 20-30 years?

The university is state-owned, and, consequently, the main part of its funding depends on budget allocations and the tariff scale. However, we have serious opportunities through various extrabudgetary activities. A significant part of extrabudgetary funds goes to wages. I will say briefly - on average, a university employee actually receives 3-4 official salaries per month.

For those who have worked with us for 20-30 years, a whole system of incentives has been introduced: the honorary titles of Honored Professor of Moscow State University, Honored Researcher of Moscow State University, Honored Worker of Moscow State University and others have been established. The presentation of the relevant diplomas and distinctions is carried out in a solemn atmosphere during the celebration of Tatyana's Day. Each such award is accompanied by monetary compensation.

I would especially like to note that for the university employees who have worked in it for a long time, all the social opportunities and benefits that we have are preserved without exception. They, like those who work, use the services of our polyclinic, libraries, public catering system, etc.

Of course, as you understand, the scale of social support is now significantly smaller than before, but nevertheless, everything that we have really replenishes these opportunities.

SCIENCE OR MONEY

Good earnings in science - how much is it possible today? Scientists are often forced to work part-time in several universities. Is it to the detriment of research?

It is difficult to say what amount of a scientist's salary should be considered good or insufficient. You know that the remuneration of a research worker is determined by a scientific position (junior research worker, senior research worker, head of a laboratory or department, etc.) and an academic degree - Candidate of Science or Doctor of Science. In Soviet times, the salary of a professor was one of the highest in the country - 4-5 times higher than in industry. Today it is not so.

True, the state seeks to somehow change this situation. For example, since last year, a scientist with a Doctor of Science degree has received a little more money, and now he receives 7,000 rubles for his degree, and 3,000 rubles for a candidate of science.

The amount of remuneration for a scientific worker, in my opinion, is not an economic category, but a political one, because it indicates what role the state assigns to a scientist in its plans and actions. In the 1990s, which you mention more than once, the state reduced the role of a scientist to almost nothing, creating the image of a person who is useless and not needed by the market. Let me remind you of the official position of the Russian government of those years: "There is too much science and education in the country."

About partnership. If a researcher works in 2-3 places, then the question arises: where to get the time to work efficiently? If the work is also diverse, then, of course, this negatively affects the scientific effectiveness. Scientific combination, if it helps to expand the circle of contacts of scientists and coordinate their joint scientific research, of course, has undeniable advantages.

CAREER IN SCIENCE

What can a young person who decides to connect his life with scientific activity expect today? Conditions for research, salary, solution of the housing problem - can we talk about positive changes here? Who goes into science today?

First, let me tell you about Moscow University. Entering Moscow State University, students thereby make their choice related to the service of science, culture and education.

Most of the young people who come to us quite consciously connect their lives with the difficult but interesting fate of a specialist researcher. They, as it were, renounce in advance a large part of worldly blessings, which are a priori inaccessible to the scientific worker and university professor.

True, this was almost always the case in the history of society and science. Scientists who, in fact, moved and continue to move civilization, in material terms, with the exception of isolated cases, most often either lived in poverty or were in average prosperity.

Perhaps for this reason, now in our country there are more holders of diplomas of higher education than ever before, and there are not so many real scientists, especially young and talented ones working in science.

Nevertheless, Moscow University does not change its main fundamental goal and line of action. We continue to build up the training of specialists-researchers, theoreticians and applied specialists. For this, the content and forms of education provided at the university are dynamically changing. We are vigorously growing with the latest scientific equipment, intensively developing all types of new high-tech communications.

In general, we are transforming on the march, and some results can be seen by looking at the other side of Lomonosovsky Prospekt, where the new university complex is growing by leaps and bounds. Upon completion of its construction, we will at least double our educational and scientific potential.

The motives that guide young people are varied. In my opinion, the main one is the passion for scientific knowledge, the desire to be the first to know something still unknown, in general - the romance of a pioneer. After all, becoming famous, becoming famous for your mind is a dream that is not alien to a scientist. Every real scientist strives to ensure that his name remains in history and in the accomplishments of science. This is a natural desire. In this, a real scientist is fundamentally different from representatives of many other professions, whose success is temporary.

BRAIN DRAIN

A powerful outflow of scientists abroad occurred in Russia in the 90s. Today, another problem is urgent: the departure of young people into business. How can this situation be changed - to keep young scientists in science?

I can say that over the years about 10-15% of professors and scientists have left Moscow University abroad. However, the university, as mentioned above, has taken a number of extraordinary measures to preserve its scientific schools. Therefore, practically not a single faculty, not a single department has suffered such personnel losses that would call into question their future viability. We have always had an active reserve, or, as they say in sports, "a long bench."

By the way, this "long bench" is the main wealth of our scientific schools, which bring together scientists of different ages. In scientific schools, there is a natural rotation of leaders, promotion and transfer of employees in the scientific and official field.

I'll say more. Over the past 15 years, including the notorious 1990s, more than twenty completely new faculties and other educational and scientific structures have been opened at Moscow University. And all of them were staffed by our teachers, our own graduates. So the problem of the brain drain has not bled him dry, as some other scientific centers may have.

This does not mean that we do not have a personnel problem, both in terms of quantity and especially in terms of age. Such a problem exists, but it is solvable and solvable. More than 10 years ago, on my initiative, two new programs were launched, which we call "100 by 100". The essence of these programs is that we quickly provide young doctors of science with the position of professor, and young candidates of science with the position of associate professor. Thanks to this innovation alone, we were able to lower the average age of the teaching staff by almost 10 years, and today it is somewhere between 50-55 years.

For our university young generation of scientists and teachers, this is one of the real career paths.

RETURN OF STAFF

The problem of the return of scientific personnel from abroad - does it exist and how is it solved at Moscow State University? How many graduates of Moscow State University are going abroad today? Is it possible to do without state support in this matter? A year ago, the program "Scientific and Scientific-Pedagogical Personnel" was discussed. Planned to launch it since 2009. What does this program involve and how effective is it?

The problem known as "brain drain" has many different shades. Accordingly, there are many different judgments and positions. Above, I have already said something on this subject in relation to Moscow University. I will add the following. There is no large-scale desire among graduates to go abroad at the university. There is also a noticeable difference in the solution of this issue from faculty to faculty, from specialty to specialty. This is understandable, since the candidate for departure first of all weighs his chances of finding employment in his specialty. Graduates of humanities faculties have few such chances. Those who in our time decide to take such a step count, in their own words, on the assistance of relatives or acquaintances who have settled abroad. So far, the available data indicate that only a few find jobs in their specialty. The rest agree to any work.

For graduates of natural science faculties, the situation with working abroad is somewhat similar to that of the humanities. Most of our mathematicians, physicists, and partly biologists are retraining as programmers. The cases when they manage to get a teaching position in a university or college are rare. In addition, by our standards, graduates receive not so high positions.

Nevertheless, the desire to leave for Europe, and even better for America, does exist. But the reason is common - the lack of reliable chances to get a well-paid job, to solve their housing problem.

About the return to their homeland of those who once left. We must be realistic in this matter. First. There are not so many who want to. Those who left 10-15 years ago are now over 40 years old. Their children are already connected with the country in which they live. This is a very serious obstacle on the way to returning to "native once penates." Second. At the age of 40, a specialist is no longer so young and energetic to take up scientific work with renewed vigor and new ideas upon his return. Nevertheless, there are cases of returning specialists from abroad, and their number is increasing.

We welcome those wishing to return. We place our main hopes on those who, even today as students or graduate students at Russian universities, link their life hopes and interests with work in their homeland. The program you are asking about is designed to significantly improve the situation of young researchers and teachers in our country.

EDUCATIONAL CODE

What is new in the Education Code? What will change with its adoption? How important is this document?

The process of changes in the domestic system of education and science has been stretched for 20 years. A huge number of laws and amendments to them, various kinds of by-laws, departmental acts regulating certain areas of the life of schools, universities and academic institutions have been adopted. It is extremely difficult to navigate in this multitude of documents. Everyone refers to the document that he knows, but which for some reason the opponent or client may not know.

The introduction of the national project "Education" has created a real basis for bringing all this set of normative and explanatory documents into a certain logically and legally substantiated system. We call this system the Educational Code.

But since in the existing educational legislation there is a lot of simply unclear, not sufficiently developed, not only the systematization of existing documents is needed, but also additional research work aimed at resolving new problems and issues.

A tender was announced for the development of this Educational Code. The tender was won by the Faculty of Law of Moscow University. Work on its compilation is underway and, as far as I can see, it is very active.

BIOGRAPHY

Viktor Sadovnichy, Rector of the Moscow State University named after M.V. Lomonosov.

Born: April 3, 1939 in the village of Krasnopavlovka, Kharkov region. Father was a worker, mother was a housewife. In 1956 he came to the Donbass, where he got a job at a mine.

Education: in 1958 he entered the Faculty of Mechanics and Mathematics of Moscow State University, in 1966 - to graduate school.

All further career is connected with Moscow State University. He has been the head of the university since 1992. Since 1994 he has been the President of the Union of Rectors of Russia.

Full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, member of the Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences. Doctor of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, Professor.

He is a specialist in the field of mathematical modeling and mathematical theory of complex systems.

Viktor Sadovnichy is considered one of the main critics of the ongoing education reform. He repeatedly opposed the introduction of the USE. He is critical of Russia's accession to the Bologna Declaration. Married. A son and two daughters are all mathematicians.

focus of "labor"

HOW MUCH DO YOU GET IN MSU

To date, the average salary of a professor at Moscow State University is 20-25 thousand rubles, an associate professor and teacher - 15-20 thousand. The allowance for a scientific degree for a candidate of sciences is 3,000 rubles, for a doctor - 7,000.

To connect your life with advanced research in science or with innovative business, it is not at all necessary to go to metropolitan universities after school. Novosibirsk State University is one of those Russian universities where integration with science takes place in deeds, not in words. The Faculty of Physics and Medicine, the Faculty of Natural Sciences (or FEN, as it is affectionately called here) regularly become a source of news about new discoveries and developments. NSU graduates develop innovative business here, in the Novosibirsk Academgorodok, where the university is located. Foreign journalists call this place the "Silicon Taiga", and visitors can only be surprised at how effectively some restrained conservatism of a classical university and the courage of innovative start-ups are combined here.

Mikhail Petrovich, as the rector of a university located specifically in Siberia, do you see any special regional specifics that are characteristic of your university and which, perhaps, Moscow State University or St. Petersburg State University do not have?

If we talk about the specifics of Siberia, then, mind you, all reforms in Russia have always ended here (smiles). Siberia is a unique geographical space. From a geographical point of view, the university is located in the center of the country, although there are huge sparsely populated areas around. To any point in Europe - about 7 hours of continuous flight. At the same time, the university is located in the center of the Novosibirsk Academgorodok, and this is the scientific capital of Russia, without any reservations. Here, on an area of ​​one and a half to two square kilometers, 35 research institutes of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences (SB RAS) are concentrated with a very powerful intellectual and material base. And the university itself at one time was organized by the Siberian branch, and this is its uniqueness. There is no such university in Russia that would provide so many researchers for the entire Russian Academy of Sciences.

Only at present, out of 35 institutes that are located here within walking distance (by the way, this is also unique), 22 are headed by graduates of our university. And now, at the stage of "rejuvenation", the re-election of directors, this number will not decrease. This is also an important touch to the portrait of the university. The general director of the Technopark of the Novosibirsk Academgorodok is also a graduate of the Mekhmat, Dmitry Verkhovod. Graduates of Novosibirsk University are a diaspora that is scattered all over the world.

The university was founded on the principles of the unity of education and science. From the very beginning, employees of research institutes taught here. It's learning through knowledge generation: teachers have always brought something to their courses that happened at the forefront of science. Approximately 80% of our teachers are part-time and work in institutes. This distinguishes us even from metropolitan universities.

Another distinguishing feature is the embodiment of the idea of ​​continuous education. We lead talented children, starting from the Physics and Mathematics School (SSC NSU), we hold school Olympiads.

In your program, with which you assumed the post of rector, you said that the integration of the university with the Russian Academy of Sciences is something that needs to be especially worked on. You have been in the position for 3 years, what can you say, how much has this direction progressed?

This integration, as it was from the very beginning, remains the same. It is important not to lose it on the current sharp turns that are taking place in the country: here are the reforms in the field of education and science, and the reform of the Russian Academy of Sciences. The issue of integration has been raised since the first meeting of the first Academic Council. January 14, 1960 Academician I.N. Vekua said that our university is de facto integrated into the SB RAS, and de jure this connection should be strengthened. To date, within the framework of the "Project 5-100" program, we have created many joint laboratories with the institutes of the Siberian Branch, namely 73. We need to do it in such a way that it is beneficial for both the institutes and the university.

Speaking in the language of education, Akademgorodok is a super-university, and in terms of potential it is in no way inferior to the leading universities in Russia, if we consider it as a scientific and educational complex. And in order for the potential to be realized, institutions must be motivated to integrate with the university. We would like the university to become an integration platform for institutions, just as the Siberian branch used to be such a platform. Here the institutes could do joint projects.

Together with the institutes, we need to organize network postgraduate studies, because most of the postgraduate students of the institutes of the SB RAS are NSU graduates. The university must be a member of joint degree awarding councils.

And so - we are integrating, there are no "cracks" between the university and the institutes. I myself come from an academic environment, and still remain part-time head of the laboratory. All 10 rectors of the university had an academic background, in the rector's chair there were people who worked in science.

At a recent meeting with you and Sergei Belousov, Chairman of the Board of Trustees of NSU, the question was raised whether NSU should position itself as an elite university. What is your opinion? After all, such positioning can alienate good, but not the most outstanding local students, while attracting more students from other regions or even from abroad. Who, let's say, is the university more focused on?

I believe that this is the mission of NSU - to train the intellectual elite for science, education, high-tech enterprises, and business. NSU must position itself and be an elite university, because otherwise we will lose our competitive advantages.

The university has always prepared researchers. Even if we are now tilting towards engineering, it is necessary to train creative engineers, not executive engineers.

Positioning itself as an elite university should in no way alienate talented students; on the contrary, it will attract them. It is impossible to deviate from its historical mission for the sake of conjuncture. We try to attract students from other regions of Russia and from abroad. Despite the fact that the USE makes the university more accessible to applicants from other regions with the appropriate scores, our average USE score remains very high. This is the third place among Russian classical universities. We are 15th in terms of the average USE score in the general list and the first among non-capital universities.

Academgorodok has its own business incubator. Do you think it is necessary to take work with startups to some new level, for example, to start teaching courses on startup development at universities?

As for the business incubator, we mainly work in the Technopark. In the Technopark, more than 80% of residents and employees are NSU graduates. If you look at the summer and winter schools of the Academpark, then more than 50% of the participants there are our graduates.

We make a great contribution to start-ups, preparing people who are able to engage in high-tech science-intensive production. If we talk about moving towards engineering, we are now organizing several areas of engineering training: instrumentation, energy-efficient catalysis, and biotechnology.

This is not the most serious, but, nevertheless, an urgent question. Just a couple of weeks ago, the news broke that the University of California at Berkeley introduced a six-week course on the popular TV series Game of Thrones, which deals with this series as a cultural phenomenon, as part of its summer seminars. From older examples: in the same place in Berkeley, a course on the Starcraft computer game has appeared for several years, they study military theory and game theory there. How do you feel about this phenomenon? Is it necessary to integrate such bright cultural phenomena into the educational process? Or should education, especially classical university education, be free from this?

Indeed, learning gamification is actively used in top Western universities. This is a kind of response to the challenges of the time: the “digital generation” is coming to universities, which can be motivated by such methods. But they are certainly not an alternative to classical university education. It is rather an optional component of it.

Now education is actively moving to the Internet. The phenomenon of massive open online courses and others like them has already become quite commonplace. And in Russia, universities are also forced to reckon with this trend and introduce distance learning systems. And how are things going with this at NSU?

Massive online learning at NSU is developing. In 2014, three open e-courses were developed to be placed on accredited by the State Institute of the Russian Language. A.S. Pushkin platforms and teaching foreign students in Russian: "Biology", "Practical course of the Russian language: spelling, punctuation and culture of speech", "On the threshold of civilization: the archeology of the Eurasian paleometal". On September 14, 2015, at the international conference on new educational technologies EdCrunch in Moscow, NSU will be announced as an international platform for online learning. The intrigue lies in the fact that today we cannot announce the name of the platform and the names of the courses. From the Editor: At the time of the interview, the intrigue was revealed. NSU launches two free courses - on genetics and the basics of virology - on the Coursera platform. The course on the basics of virology is taught by the famous scientist Sergey Netesov and his colleagues. It was in his laboratory that the genome of the Ebola virus was deciphered. The launch of these courses marks the university's entry into the global online education market. The news about this is posted on the official website of the university.

How do you feel about students taking courses on online platforms like Coursera? Do you think to somehow take into account the certificates received for such courses in offline education of students?

If you know, in the Russian Federation a certain analogue of Coursera has been created - the Russian National Platform for Open Education. The Ministry of Education and Science of the Russian Federation recommends that universities reread the learning outcomes obtained during the development of online courses hosted on this platform, for example, as elective disciplines. This issue is currently being studied at our university.

In 2014, NSU ranked third among Russian universities in terms of the average USE score among applicants. How do you feel about the Unified State Examination - is it an effective way to check the readiness of applicants to study at your university? Or are you more focused on the Olympiads and Olympiads?

Of course, the Unified State Examination allows you to “at the entrance” determine a person’s readiness to study with us, but for us it is preferable to people who enter the Olympiads. And, by the way, there are quite a few of them in the natural science faculties. They mainly go to the physics department and the hair dryer. Last year, we tracked the following statistics: during the first sessions, Olympiad participants are about a point ahead of those who passed the Unified State Exam in terms of average score. True, this does not really characterize how their fate will develop further. But in general, Olympiads learn better. The ability to solve non-standard problems is very important. All of us, the older and middle generation, entered through exams. At the Faculty of Physics, 5 exams were taken: physics in writing and orally, mathematics in writing and orally, composition. At such exams, the main thing was the ability to solve non-standard problems. The tasks were divided into difficulty levels. You could solve two out of five and get a “three”, or you could solve one, but difficult, and get a “four”. Examinations made it possible to select people who could think outside the box.

How do you generally feel about the various rankings of universities? As an inevitable evil that must be taken into account in your work simply because it happened, or is it still as some kind of objective indicator that reflects the real picture?

You have to participate in rankings. This is a kind of mirror in which universities should look. The only thing that needs to be demanded from the rating is that it contains objective criteria. It is hard for us to compete in reputation with the universities of Moscow and St. Petersburg, but there are objective indicators. And, no matter how we are evaluated, we always find ourselves in the top ten among Russian universities.

Universities in Siberia are also different. NSU is not like Tomsk State University or other leading Siberian universities. Novosibirsk University is very young, but, nevertheless, it has developed traditions that are only here. Our slogan - "We will not make you smarter, we will teach you to think" - corresponds to the spirit of the university.

Editor's note: The Russified version of QS World University Rankings - the world ranking of the best universities according to the British consulting company Quacquarelli Symonds - has recently been published. NSU occupies the 317th position in it. This is the third place among Russian universities - only Moscow State University and St. Petersburg State University are ahead - and the first among the participants of the Project 5-100 program.

They say that in circles around the university there are certain fears that the rector, that is, you, will not close the Faculty of Humanities. What are these concerns about? And what about, in this case, with a strong archaeological school, which also makes NSU a name? There are after all examples of successful neighborhood of the humanitarian and technical areas at universities?

This is a difficult question for me, but in fact the rector is not going to close any humanitarian direction. Maybe the number of legal entities will change. We are talking about uniting humanitarian areas under a kind of “umbrella”. But we are not going to close any humanitarian direction. Faculty is one thing, but directions are another. The classical university also has a socio-cultural mission, and we simply cannot refuse it.

Sergei Belousov, when asked how he sees an ideal university, listed foreign languages, design and psychology. What three things would you name? What do you agree with Sergey's list?

Engineering direction, he called design, I agree with that. The next is medicine, the life sciences in general, and the fundamental sciences. I would add the humanities, without them a classical university is impossible.

If you succeeded in all the reforms that you have planned (are you already implementing or just keeping in your head), what would NSU look like? And what about its interaction with the SB RAS and institutes?

I wish I knew what I was up to (smiles)! Much of what the "founding fathers" conceived has already been implemented. It is difficult for me to say where the curve of interaction with institutions will lead us and where the university reform will lead. It is very important that what is now on the territory of Akademgorodok is a single scientific and educational complex. So that we do not have barriers - material, intellectual, financial. It is necessary to rejuvenate the staff, improve the scientific, educational and social infrastructure.

The main thing is to follow the evolutionary path. Revolutions will not improve the situation. There is a special environment here, a special world, a special spirit, and it is precisely all the best that must be preserved here.

Rector of the National Research University Higher School of Economics Yaroslav Kuzminov is often called the real author of reforms in Russian higher education. The Kuzminov University, which includes the Institute of Education, is actively studying this area. The rector himself regularly comes up with a variety of bold initiatives - for example, he recently proposed to force the winners of the Olympiads to take the Unified State Exam in a specialized subject when entering the university. Lenta.ru spoke with the rector of HSE about the changes that took place in 2013 at the university and in domestic higher education in general.

According to Kuzminov, the main goal of higher education is to prepare a person who is successful in his career. The initiated reforms by 2020 - if successfully implemented - should minimize the scope of "pseudo-education", increase funding for the educational process, change the structure of universities (in particular, universities of general higher education for "undecided" students should appear), reduce the number of compulsory courses, increase the proportion of research teachers and move distance education online. Arguing in an interview with Lenta.ru about ongoing and future transformations, Kuzminov said that he does not consider himself a "gray cardinal" in Russian education.

Lenta.ru: This year a new law on education came into force. What did he change in the life of the Higher School of Economics?

Yaroslav Kuzminov: The law made it possible to have subdivisions within the university that implement the general (secondary) school program. A lyceum appeared in Vyshka. These are profile grades 10-11, in which pre-professional courses are given by scientists from different faculties: a school for high school students, where we are trying to create pre-profile training. The new high school standard allows for up to 10-12 "profile" hours per week, which is unusually high for pre-university training. Why all this? The goal is twofold: on the part of the state and the city - to improve the quality of high school (high school teachers are on average stronger and more interesting for schoolchildren), and on the part of the university - to create a core of professionally oriented students who are interested in philosophy, namely psychology, namely electronics. I hope that in the near future all decent universities will create lyceums, then we will have a much better high school.

The second short story - the law excluded the provision of hostels from the educational services. The consequences of this measure, in my opinion, can seriously limit the main positive effect of the USE - the increased educational mobility of students. The proportion of out-of-town students at HSE has increased to almost half, and we don't want to give it up. At least this year, we have refused to increase the dormitory fee, and we will strive to ensure that there are no financial obstacles for the best students, whose education is paid by the state, to study in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

Third - you can count "foreign" courses and "foreign" diplomas. Our interaction with Western universities will be facilitated.

Liberal Arts, "liberal arts", is an undergraduate model in which the student makes his choice consistently and when entering the first year is not required to choose a narrow specialization. Details about her "Lente.ru" Nikolai Grintser, director of the School of Contemporary Humanitarian Studies at the Russian Academy of National Economy and Public Administration (RANEPA). Now the Liberal Arts model is being implemented at the RANEPA and at St. Petersburg State University, and Moscow State Pedagogical University plans to introduce it.

How do you feel about the idea of ​​a bachelor's degree in Liberal Arts?

With sympathy. Liberal Arts is what is now called general higher education, a normal higher education for a person who is not professionally defined. It is definitely needed. Moreover, I think that this is exactly what is needed for a significant part of students now. But I doubt that it is needed at HSE or other research universities. We are not going to introduce Liberal Arts in its pure form. Figuratively speaking, it will be too expensive for the state "free education". But the model of free choice of a third or even half of the courses is being introduced. But the professional core of the program remains.

You have repeatedly said that the school in Russia is shorter in duration than in other countries. Accordingly, higher education should somehow make up for this.

It not only owes, it also fulfills. In our country, two-thirds of students study mainly in the first or second year, while general developmental subjects are taught, and not instrumental ones. Then they get to work. This is Liberal Arts, it's just Liberal Arts in the clothes of a five-year-old manufacturing engineer. It's actually both funny and sad. We still need to read fairy tales more often, for example, about the naked king.

You are often called the main ideologist of the reforms that are taking place in Russian education. To what extent are you personally and the Higher School of Economics as a whole able to influence the policy of the Ministry of Education and Science, what is happening in the country with education?

I think we are able to influence in the same way as any active people. Some of our comrades are so accustomed to sitting and doing nothing (or “surviving”, scolding the authorities) that they have lost the habit of normal manifestations of activity and perceive them as careerism or the role of a gray cardinal. Vyshka is a pioneer of new solutions in education and a collective researcher of education and science. This is our real role, our ambitions.

We did not and do not stand behind anyone, not for [former Minister of Education Vladimir] Filippov, nor for [former Minister of Education and Science Andrey] Fursenko, nor for [Minister of Education and Science Dmitry] Livanov. These are independent politicians and experts. They have their own ideas, they are often close to ours, but not only ours, by the way. But ministers always listen to a much broader range of opinions than the opinion of HSE. I am not ready to bear responsibility either for other people's laurels or for other people's mistakes.

If at the same time we have a proposal on how to adjust the policy, we most often make it publicly, and not behind the scenes. We use different platforms, the Public Chamber or the Association of Leading Universities, for example.

In recent years, I have been trying our initiatives, if they are serious, major initiatives, to first declare publicly, and only then discuss with the bosses. It seems to me that our educational life is quite ripe for its “driver” to be the educated part of the population. This is far from the case in a number of other industries (for example, in healthcare), but in education it is, and this is our huge advantage.

What do you think is the ultimate goal of higher education?

Higher education should ensure a successful career of a person. There is such a thing as human capital. This is an estimate of a person's capitalized income, that is, how much you will earn. And higher education is just connected with the concepts of career and human capital.

To what extent does a higher education contribute to a career?

It promotes a career, no doubt. In the urban economy, you must have a college degree, otherwise you won't have any career. Exceptions can literally be counted on the fingers.

What should the reforms lead to (if everything works out)? What are reformers working for?

Higher education reform, if successfully implemented, could bring several important results by 2020. The first is that everyone who wants and is able to study gets higher education, because now everyone who wants to get a piece of paper gets higher education. The second is that the basic budget provision per student should be doubled. Somewhere at least up to 160-200 thousand rubles a year, taking into account inflation (this, by the way, is a fairly realistic assumption, given the demographics and the decree on raising teachers' salaries). With that kind of money, you can already learn normally.

The third, following from the second, is that the sphere of pseudo-formation should shrink to a minimum. It must move from the level of entire institutions to the level of individual cases when a bad teacher and a bad student find each other. There is such a thing in any country, but it is not a system. Fourth, a group of universities will stand out that will be competitive at the world level. There should be about 50 of them - this is the minimum for such a large country as Russia. And they should cover almost all branches of knowledge. Today, among the universities selected "to be included in the ratings" - not a single medical, not a single agrarian, not a single transport one.

Fifth, there should be a new structure of universities, including universities of general higher education, which are largely funded by those who study. They are still there, but they must stop mimicking. There should appear - as in other countries - "universities of applied sciences", preparing cultured people with high self-esteem - to work with their hands, to work as qualified performers. Universities of Applied Baccalaureate. And there should be classical and technical universities, which are not always research “as a whole” (for example, in regions where there is not enough funding), but where there is some kind of movement, where new ideas appear, young teams arise. Some leave, some make a career there. Such an undergrowth.

The next one is the sixth, right? - there should be a new structure of educational programs, corresponding to the world. Today we have overloaded curricula - 25-28 classroom hours a week, six to eight subjects at the same time. Students can master this purely formally, but there is not enough time for independent work, for a deep study of key things.

Then - the teacher must be a researcher. This is the hardest part. I will even say carefully: at least half of university professors by 2020 should become researchers. Now less than 20 percent are doing research. And the teacher must be included in the global community, speak languages ​​- and earn as a manager.

And finally, this is the mass distribution of online courses. I think that by 2020 in Russia half of all courses will be MOOCs (Massive Open Online Courses). They should replace the old notes, and this should completely replace, ideally, the current correspondence education. Half of our students in Russia are part-time students.

The Higher School of Economics was one of the first Russian universities to offer its courses on Coursera, the largest (originally American) platform for MOOCs. Representatives of the Ministry of Education and Science have recently spoken out in support of online education: in October, the deputy head of the department Alexander Klimov, that at least 20 percent of courses in universities should go online.

How should face-to-face education compare with online courses?

They should replace between a third and a half of the general courses taught in universities, even in good ones. HSE will annually update the list of open courses from Western universities, which, if you pass them, count as a course taken with us. In two or three years, there will be the next stage of evolution, when universities will realize that this is generally a colossal resource source: you declare that you have mathematical analysis or linear algebra, economic theory and philosophy, and indicate online courses that you need to overcome, reinforce them with generalizing seminars with discussion of qualifying works, individual consultations. Then you can fire some of those teachers who are scientifically unproductive, and save the budget - invest it in research, in attracting really great scientists. This will shift the focus of the university to research work and work with undergraduates.

In fact, the effect is very similar to what it was at the time of the appearance of the printed book. What did educated people do in the past? They all sat and rewrote. And then, since instead of a long line of scribe monks, one artisan appeared with a printing machine, the former scribe monks began to compose something new, a church revolution began, as you know, and in general, the Renaissance began.

And what place should open lectures occupy in education?

This place is not in education, but in culture, I think. In culture, we expand our horizons, we do not set ourselves the need to change. In culture you can relax, in education you have to concentrate. And these lectures open to the city, which are held by the "Tower", is an attempt by science to enter the brains of our fellow citizens with you through the door, which they did not open at all for this. Such education is part of cultural consumption.

This year, monitoring the effectiveness of universities has been changed and supplemented. In particular, the criterion of employment was added. But you have repeatedly said that the most important thing is to measure the salary of graduates. Why?

Because it is an objective indicator of what the university is doing. We do not measure the quality of graduates, their human capital. We have agreed with the Federal Tax Service on a pilot project for several dozen universities, and in a year, perhaps, we will create a nationwide measurement system.

Are we the Higher School of Economics?

No, there are several participants there: "Tower", RANEPA, the Union of Rectors and others - all at once became interested in this matter and joined their efforts. I agreed with [head of the Federal Tax Service Mikhail] Mishustin. We give them data on graduates, for each specialty of each university - they all have a TIN. The Federal Tax Service searches for them, processes them and transfers the data in anonymized form for analysis to Rosobrnadzor or the Ministry of Education and Science.

At one time, you spoke about some kind of conditional university exam. What happened to this idea?

It is currently not implemented directly. I can guess why. The fact is that the proportion of graduates who do not even know the basics of their sciences is still too high. And as soon as it comes to implementation, people are afraid of political responsibility. If we conduct an exam for graduates of economic faculties and see that they do not know the basics of statistics, do not know econometrics - at best, do they know the beginning of accounting and the initial course of economic theory (“in pictures”)? And if they are 90 percent? And if it is even 60 percent? This is a political problem, the state is not ready to face it.

Apparently, there will be a softer way - voluntary accreditation of educational programs, which will include the measurement of residual knowledge of graduates. It will be held by specialized associations of leading universities.

Accreditation in the form in which it exists now? Or additional?

Additional, of course. I think that at first it will be completely voluntary. Then it will also be completely voluntary, but the ministry, for example, will announce that they will not give budgetary places without it. And then accreditation will not be given without it. The point is to do it gradually. This can be done in seven years, and then introduce the Unified State Examination for graduates. Therefore, it turns out here is such a gradual, increasing pressure. Most citizens should not feel like the sky has fallen on them.

Another major topic of 2013 is the international university rankings. Actually, the Higher School of Economics received a grant just to increase competitiveness. How objectively can these ratings assess the quality of education at a university?

I would say that the quality of education is not directly related to global rankings. The Shanghai rating is tough, there are verifiable indicators (for example, Nobel laureates who graduated from your university). Times - a softer rating, there are estimates, not facts. QS is even softer, it includes assessments of the demand for graduates, recognition of this university in the community. But what kind of negative sides do they have? The fact is that this is largely a rating of opinions (a rating of fame). On the one hand, it's probably possible. On the other hand, this is the opinion of the members of the English-speaking educational community.

There is no talk of any conspiracy. We in this community will lag behind simply because in Russia a much smaller proportion of good scientists are involved in the global community, publishing results in English-language journals. You can regard this as an injustice. And we can treat this as a task that we must solve. I prefer the second option: it is clear that being part of a global community is a plus, not a minus. Profanation can be everywhere, ratings cannot be absolute, but they are useful. And ratings that are unpleasant for us are doubly useful to us.

What then is their main use? In stimulating universities?

In stimulation, in violent globalization.

How can you tell? We've been doing this for a long time. Before any rankings. That's why we got into the rankings. In the 1990s, we were formed on the basis of a synthesis of the European and Soviet academic traditions, so from the very beginning HSE felt like a part of not only the Russian, but also the global community. And it is quite difficult for a university, which has completely left the Soviet overcoat, to reorganize itself. And if globalization is not demanded, as Peter cut his beards and twisted his caftans, then the bad features of the domestic system will also be reproduced. Firstly, this is provincialism, when people do not read anything in non-Russian or do not read anything other than articles where they are specifically referenced. By and large, this is pseudoscience, although people may sincerely not guess about it. Secondly, this is inbreeding - when universities mainly hire their own graduates. Thirdly, excessive specialization, limiting horizons and professional mobility. Fourthly, the lack of choice, the "rut" of subjects prescribed from above - as a result, people who have graduated from a university also do not know how to choose.

Are there dangers of globalization? Will the good sides of the national tradition, if any, be lost?

There is. I believe that the good side of the national tradition - unpleasant, but useful - is a very rigid system of education. When Western colleagues come here, they all gasp, you know what? “What a wild dropout [number of expelled students] you have! You can't live like this! It's inhumane!"

At the same time, it is almost impossible to fly out of humanitarian universities, even from the humanitarian faculties of Moscow State University. Including because every student is financed. It is unprofitable for the university to expel students.

Livanov is trying to change this situation. He is now trying to separate the funding of the university from the number of students: you received the money, and this money will be enough for you for a year or two. You won't have them cut. So far they didn't believe in it. And, probably, it is right that they did not believe. You never know what the minister says there. There are his financiers who act differently, but I think that if he is persistent enough, then this will be a good signal in the system.

We talked about the good aspects of domestic education, which may be lost with globalization...

I named you the first one. The second is fundamentality. We give more courses that show the details. The Western, Anglo-Saxon tradition is very instrumental. It excludes things that are not directly needed. But in the Russian tradition there is a large amount of optional knowledge, let's call it that. This is what also shapes the sterile Russian intellectual. And I am in awe of him. I want it to be preserved.

It turns out that the Anglo-Saxon tradition is just better suited to prepare a person who is successful in his career?

Yes you are right. But he's just boring, and girls won't like him.

How does Vyshka make money?

We have three main sectors. Paid students, additional education, applied R&D and expert-analytical work. There are almost no universities that are as harmoniously represented in all three markets as HSE. RANEPA, probably. I am well aware that this is not an answer for techies or classics.

And how should university funding be arranged in general?

It should be the way we are now. 40 percent of money - we earn ourselves. This is the maximum that the university should earn. We now have poor earnings prospects in all three markets that I have listed. And not only for HSE, but for all universities. The first is paying students: our demographics are shrinking, but the number of state-funded places remains, this market is almost exhausted. Applied R&D in our country is monopolistically financed either by the state or by state monopolies - under duress. Demand from the private sector is almost zero. And additional education is also a bad market. We have one of the largest proportions of major higher education students in the world. And we have one of the smallest proportions of students in additional programs. The reason is the same - economic stagnation, lack of serious competition in the product market and in the labor market. Competition is the main driver of innovation. Just like that, you live great, no one wants to change.

How do you feel about Putin's initiative to take into account the final essay in addition to the Unified State Examination when applying?

I think this initiative is more good than bad. We have previously proposed a slightly different option. The Public Chamber proposed to replace the Unified State Examination in Russian with an essay in literature or history of the choice of a person. Yes, the subjectivity of the exam is back. But the main thing is that this subjectivity should not be of a directional nature, that it should not be subjectivity in someone's favor, as is often the case both at school and at a university.

You came up with an initiative, already supported by the Ministry of Education and Science, for the winners of the Olympiads to take the Unified State Examination in their core subject. How do you feel about the current system of Olympiads?

This is a very important addition to the exam. We were among those who proposed the system of Olympiads, and we are extremely positive about them. And my initiative was that we, the organizers of the Olympiads, should give some signal to society, that we understand people's doubts that there are no gaps in the Olympiad movement, that there is no subjectivity, that there is no help to one's own person. This is such an elementary precautionary measure.

The Olympics is one of the opportunities to work with gifted children. How, in your opinion, should work with talented children be organized at the school level?

The modern school is not designed to work with talented children. It is too focused on a universal program. It seems to me that if we develop lyceums at leading universities, this will be systematic work with talented children. The second part of the work with talented children is leadership and authoring schools, although they are far from always focused on this.

It seems to me that in our country, in principle, a good system of work with talented children. But we have poor guarantees that a talented person from an unadapted family will have the opportunity to realize his talent: among the damned capitalists it has long been arranged in such a way that any elite paid establishments necessarily have 15-20 percent of free places for Latin Americans, for immigrants, for children with low parental education. Here we need to learn how to do it.

And how to deal with the falsification of the exam?

If we talk about the falsification of the Unified State Examination, we just need to introduce a more normal system for protecting assignments, a system of criminal liability for fraud, and form appropriate judicial practice. We lost a year under the previous leadership of Rosobrnadzor.

Photo: Alexander Kryazhev / RIA Novosti

You also mentioned the creation of an open database of USE results.

We expect that such a base will be created in the near future. We need to make changes to the legislation. There is a provision on the protection of personal data, and today there is an absurd situation when a person can see the number of people with equal scores on the website of the university where he enters, but he cannot see how many people in Russia with such scores and where they are assigned the documents. This, it seems to me, should be completely transparent to everyone. This has nothing to do with the person, because the database may not contain a surname, but there may be an identification number.

That is, relatively speaking, will a database be created that will show how many people received 100 points in history?

Yes, because as long as the applicant focuses not on the competition, but on the passing score, you can calculate from the last year - where it makes sense for you to do. This year, the average score was four points higher than a year ago, and a lot of people ended up missing the mark and, against their will, ended up in paid departments. It is necessary to open a database of results even before admission, then it will be easier for applicants to understand which universities to submit their documents to. I don't know who is against this decision. It’s just that everyone is afraid: there is a law [on the protection of personal data], how are we going to overcome this law now?

The Higher School of Economics is growing more and more. There are new faculties, new institutes. How do you manage to monitor the quality of an educational institution?

We have several tools. First, new faculties are formed by people who are embedded in the international academic community and offer new programs. Secondly, we do regular audits, form international teams of experts from the world's leading universities who come to evaluate the quality of our education, the quality of scientific work. Thirdly, we have probably the most developed student survey system in Russia. We have an internal sociological agency that regularly interviews students about any details. And we have the choice of the best teacher. We look at how the votes of students are distributed. If at some faculty only a teacher of English and philosophy is noted, that is, they do not mark their own, this is also some kind of litmus test.

One important tool we will now only form. This is a feedback system from employers and graduates. We will now conduct regular seminars, research on each faculty, in each area - what competencies students and graduates lack. How it is necessary to change the educational program, what are the claims against our graduates, what hinders their career on the part of those who determine this career

Will anything change in the life of HSE when in April the position of rector ceases to be elective and becomes appointed? As I understand it, according to the law, this applies to all universities that are subordinate to the government.

No, this applies to those universities that won the competition [to increase competitiveness] "5-100". The conditions for participation are the appointment of a rector, an international advisory committee and the transition to autonomy. Of the higher education institutions of the government, only HSE entered the structure of such universities. Since we are already an autonomous institution, our changes were limited to the appointment of a rector.

So will it somehow affect the life of the university?

I think no. HSE is a huge intellectual corporation, five thousand scientists, old and young, its life has long ceased to depend on any one person. We have learned well self-government at the level of faculties and institutes.

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